Dan Cupkovic, Cerity
BlackSwan ETFs: Hedged Equity for Any Market
Dan Cupkovic is a partner at Cerity Partners , the seventh largest RIA in the country with around $70 billion in assets , and the portfolio manager behind the SWAN ETF. He's been in finance for nearly 20 years, starting at Northwestern Mutual, spending a decade at RE Investments Services as director of investments, and now serving on Cerity's national investment committee. His path to creating SWAN started with a childhood curiosity about money: "My dad was always a very successful architect, but they were never particularly good with money. So that was always where I got an interest." As a kid at his grandmother's house, he watched CNN's ticker tapes "like a different language" and never looked back.
SWAN's Architecture: 90% Safety, 10% Home Runs
The SWAN strategy is elegantly simple in concept, even if the execution involves options complexity. The portfolio is split into two buckets: roughly 90% in investment-grade fixed income (primarily U.S. Treasuries) and 10% in long-dated call options on the S&P 500 , specifically LEAP options with expiration dates in June and December.
"It's 10% home run money with those call options , they give you uncapped upside to the S&P 500 , and 90% safety belt money," Dan explains. The strategy rotates like clockwork: when June arrives, they sell the current June LEAP and roll to the following June. December works the same way. Any excess returns get reinvested into the fixed-income sleeve, and vice versa.
The expected risk-return profile over three-to-five-year horizons: roughly what the 10-year Treasury yields on the fixed income side, plus about 40 to 50% of equity market upside from the options. "Combine those and that's the expected return."
Where SWAN Shines , and Where It Doesn't
Dan is refreshingly honest about when SWAN works and when it struggles. "The most advantageous environments are very, very good positive markets , if the market's up 50%, those call options are going to sing beautifully. And the more the market goes up, the larger that proportion of the portfolio becomes until rebalance." Similarly, in severe downturns like COVID's crash, "the bleeding stops after those call options go to zero. You're left with the basket of Treasuries, which typically hold their value very well and can offset any losses."
Where SWAN doesn't shine: the plus-or-minus 5% zone. "If the market doesn't move in our favor, those options aren't going to pay off because of time value decay. There could be an environment where the market flies ahead a little and we're still down five or seven percent because the call option didn't pay off." The strategy is built for fat tails, not narrow ranges.
How Advisors Use It
Dan sees two distinct usage patterns among advisors. RIAs tend to use SWAN as a permanent 5-20% allocation within a globally diversified model , "that's where it maximizes additional Sharpe ratio to a portfolio" and creates rebalancing opportunities (shaving SWAN in bad years to buy cheap equities). Brokers tend to use it more tactically , as a shorter-term risk-off play for three-to-twelve months when they're worried about turbulence.
Dan clearly prefers the strategic allocation approach. He also notes that some investors use SWAN as a substitute for owning Treasuries outright, given that it provides Treasury-like stability with embedded equity optionality.
Markets and the Case for Diversification
When asked about second-half positioning, Dan advocates strongly for breadth: "You want to create a portfolio that's very strong, that can still get a solid return in many types of markets. Because we don't know if rates are going to stay higher for longer, continue to climb, come back. We don't know if we're going to go into a really ugly recession, get a soft landing."
On AI and technology, he makes a perceptive observation: "If you're Microsoft and you're offering an AI system, you can have a million users, you can have a billion users, and the cost difference isn't that much. The efficiencies of scale are interesting." But he also notes the physical infrastructure buildout behind the hype: "It's like a real estate grab for server farms for AI."
Dan brews his own kombucha, coaches YMCA and CYO basketball, and has a third child on the way , the kind of personal details that remind you these fund managers are real people managing real money for real clients, not just algorithms behind ticker symbols.
The SWAN strategy has spawned ancillary products , ICSWAN (international) and QSWAN (tech-focused) , extending the same hedged-equity concept to different market segments. Dan's partnership at Cerity Partners, with its $70 billion in assets and national investment committee, gives him institutional credibility and resources that most individual fund managers lack. The combination of a massive RIA platform and a specialized hedged-equity product creates a natural distribution channel , Cerity's own advisor network provides built-in demand for a product designed by one of their own investment committee members.
Key Takeaways
- Dan Cupkovic is a partner at Cerity Partners , the seventh largest RIA in the country with around $70 billion in assets , and the portfolio manager behind the SWAN ETF.
- He's been in finance for nearly 20 years, starting at Northwestern Mutual, spending a decade at RE Investments Services as director of investments, and now serving on Cerity's national investment committee.
- The SWAN strategy is elegantly simple in concept, even if the execution involves options complexity.
- The portfolio is split into two buckets: roughly 90% in investment-grade fixed income (primarily U.S.
Listen to the full conversation on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.
Full Transcript
5,134 wordsMachine transcribed from Brad Roth's conversation with Dan Cupkovic, Cerity, with speakers identified automatically. Timestamps link to that moment on YouTube. Lightly cleaned, otherwise unedited.
Welcome to Behind the Ticker. I'm Brad Roth, Chief Investment Officer of Thor Financial Technologies and Portfolio Manager of THLV, the Thor Low Volatility ETF. Behind the Ticker uncovers the inner workings of the ETF industry. We will interview portfolio managers and ETF service providers to dive deep into their work lives and their businesses. We will learn the inner workings of their strategies and what drives them as they continue to grow their company. Many of these individuals are entrepreneurs and will have unique and compelling insights to share as much goes on behind the ticker. Please note, nothing in this show is investment advice and it is meant solely for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Welcome to Behind the Ticker. Today we have Dan Kupkovic. He's the Portfolio Manager for SWAN, S-W-A-N, and also some ancillary products, iSwan and QSwan. He is also a partner at Sarity Partners, who is a massive registered investment advisory firm. And I think you're going to learn a lot today from Dan. We talk about SWAN, which is a very interesting product. We also talk a little bit towards the end about markets and what's going on at least year to date and what we think is going to happen here in the future. So please enjoy this episode with Dan Kupkovic. Hey, Dan, welcome to the show. Brad, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
So before we get started, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your background and kind of how you got to the position you got in today?
Yeah, no, great question. So, kind of wasn't, I've been in finance almost 20 years now, so I'm a partner at Sarity Partners. We're a large RIA, I think we're the seventh largest in the country, around $70 billion. I'm in the Louisville market. Before that, I worked for a more mid-sized RIA called Argi Investment Services. And I worked for them as Director of Investments for almost a decade as a manager before that, and then as a financial planner before that. And prior to that, I worked at actually Northwestern Mutual as a financial representative, did a bit of, general planning, but also some life insurance. So, how did it come about for me to sort of get into finance, as a kid? You know,
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Honestly, and I hope my parents don't listen to this, because I'm going to throw them under the bus a little bit. I don't know if I'm breaking any commandments. But, my dad was always a very successful kind of architect, had a, he owns his own company, did well, but they were never particularly good with money. So that was always kind of, I noticed that as a child growing up, I'm like, you know what, I want to understand this money thing. So that's where I kind of got an interest. I remember at my grandma's when I was maybe 10 or 12, she used to watch me in the summer. I watched like CNN, right when they first had those ticker tapes coming in. And that
Was always fascinating to me. It was kind of like a different language. So it was always kind of that curiosity on wanting to understand money. Didn't really, have an in or know anyone in the industry, just sort of kind of, went to school for it, slowly learned, put out a bunch of resumes. And, after 15, 20 years, good things happen, I guess.
So when did you pivot from kind of the financial advisory space? I know you still work with some clients, but really into the portfolio management and portfolio construction.
Probably my first four or five years, I was primarily financial advisory. Since 2011, I've been mostly portfolio management side. So like I'm on the investment committee for the National Investment Committee at CRD Partners, and we manage quite a few portfolios. But as you said, like, I still have, I get energy as a person, I think, as a professional or as an individual kind of evaluating what you want to do with your life, you have to figure out what gives you energy, right? Do you like doing the analytics? Do you like meeting people? Do you want to be sitting at a desk all day and say, leave me alone? Or do you like to be kind of in the fray? And I'm more of an in the fray type of person. So I like interacting, whether that's with clients or
Other investment professionals or financial professionals. So that's kind of why I'm kind of more engaged in that area. But I also like meeting with, institutions and clients, because that's where the rubber hits the road. And you can actually feel good about providing really good investment advice, because you can see it positively affect people. So it's been, I don't know, 12 years where I've been predominantly investment, but I haven't 100% given up sort of that individual client touch that I think is important to sort of understand what everybody goes through on a day to day, year to year basis, and kind of the hecticness of the
Capital markets, especially recently. Yeah, I think that's important to, I still have a couple of handful of family and friends, and also some other clients as well. And I think it's important when you're on the money management side, and the investment side to understand the struggle and how important it is to see both sides of it. But before we get into Swan, we're here to talk about Swan. But before we get into Swan about what about personally, what kind of hobbies you like? I know you a little bit. I know you're expecting your third child, but you might not have too many hobbies anymore. But what does Dan like to do when he's not managing money? Yeah, so I've been super involved
With basketball for a long, long time. I coached JV back in like 2005. I've coached YMCA basketball. I've coached Goya, which is basically like CYO ball. So I like I'm into coaching, coach my kids a lot. I do think, intermediate term, I'd love to give back and kind of get into that maybe on high school level or middle school level. obviously watch a lot of that read up on the markets. I actually so kind of a recent hobby I picked up, I'm brewing my own kombucha. So at home, I kind of figured out I'm trying to kind of kick soda, I drink too much Coke Zero. So I started making, sweet tea kombucha. And it's actually it's pretty good. So I'd recommend you
Check it out. So kind of some random stuff out there. There you go. I did not expect to hear you say that. But I'll try it next time. Maybe we're maybe we're together. But let's dive into Swan. When did you decide to launch Swan? Was that running as a separate strategy? And then you'd convert it into an ETF? Or has it been an ETF, forever?
Yeah. So the ETF launched in November of 2018. However, we managed it internally at Argy Investment Services going back to I think, August of 2014. So there was quite a bit of lead up before we even kind of went the ETF direction. It was kind of a proof of concept with our advisors internally. I came up with the idea sort of in sometime in 2013, I was reading options as a strategic investment, and kind of was looking at different ways to utilize, derivatives in a portfolio safely. Because I think a lot of people when you say options, they get scared and assume everything's super risky. But there's, intelligent, more prudent, safer ways to utilize options as well as more aggressive. So, kind of came up in 2013,
Launched in 2014 internally, had some heavy, robust academic research go into it before we even launched the ETF. So there's two white papers based on kind of the methodology. One's called Leaping Black Swans. I think it was out in 2017 or 2018, written by Bill Treanor and Dr. Indu Chachi, who are both, involved with Seredi Partners. And then the second was called The Barbell Approach. And I was a co-author in that. So, there was a lot of sort of testing and rigor before we even wanted to, open it up to possibly venturing in the ETF market.
So explain the underlying strategy of Swan. And I know the basics of it, but I think it would be important to kind of talk about it, kind of mechanically how it works. And then also, what is it trying to achieve from a higher level?
Yeah. So high level, kind of why do you own Swan? Well, I would say you want more equity-like returns than you're going to get in fixed income with less risk. So I do think that long-term, Swan will get you between 6%, 7%, maybe 8% annualized. So sort of the risk return of maybe a moderate portfolio or expected return of a moderate portfolio or even more risky fixed income with sort of higher sharp ratios and less risk. So obviously more in the retiree phase or the more conservative investors work. How does it work? It's actually fairly simple. I like to go by the Einstein analogy of sort of keep everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.
So it has 90% of the portfolio at the time of rebalance, which is an important caveat, in a treasury bond ladder targeting between five and 10 years of duration. So it's intermediate treasury bonds and it's a bulleted ladder approach. And that's 90% of the portfolio. It's like all sort of 90% safety belt. And then it takes 10% of the portfolio and invests in those risky call options. And in Swan's case, it buys it on the S&P 500 or SPY, the underlying ETF ticker. So as opposed to having one tranche of 10% options, we break that up into two separate call tranches. So there's a 5% allocation to June of any particular year and a 5% allocation to December.
And the strategy works like the clock on the option component, where when June comes up, like we just had the June rebalance, we sell that June of the current year date, and then we roll it to the June of the following year date. And if there's any excess from returns, we put it into the fixed income and vice versa. And then in December, kind of the same thing. So it's 10%, what I like to say, home run money with those call options that give you uncapped upside to the S&P 500, 90% safety belt money. And in so kind of the long term analysis, as per some of the white papers is, it gets you about what 90% of the 10 year treasury does. And it gets you about 40 to 50% of the upside
Of the market. And if you combine it, that's kind of the expected kind of risk return profile that you can get over sort of three and five year horizon.
So that's interesting. And so when you're talking to, I'm assuming, because of the complexity of the strategy, it's not complex, it's two pieces, but it's not really a retail based product. So I'm assuming most of this, most of the discussions you're having, and most of the assets you're raising are from institutional clients or RIAs?
Yeah, so I would say the vast majority of conversations have been with RIAs. We have had a few institutional allocators that we've had conversations with. But that, there's still conversations that we have with brokers on regular bases. Like in a lot of cases, the good thing about Swan and the bad thing about Swan is you can use it in a lot of different ways. I think the more kind of the broker tendency is to use it as a shorter term risk off play, where they own it for a period of time, because they're worried about market turbulence, with the objective of getting out of it, in three, six, nine, 12 months, where I think the RIA is, in my opinion, I've seen more as sort of capital allocators,
Where they're buying it to own, five, 10, 15% for a more indeterminate length.
Yeah, so that's what I was going to ask next was how advisors are seeing it and using it. With the call option component, though, isn't that a little bit backwards to use it just as risk off? So like, what environments do you want to be owning Swan?
Yeah, so Swan, like the way that I see Swan is most advantageous is in very, very good positive environments. Meaning if the market's up 50%, those call options are going to sing beautifully and be up a tremendous amount. And you have to remember, the more the market goes up, the larger that proportion of the portfolio becomes the call option until rebalance. So theoretically, the more the market goes up, the more that call option can drive value for the portfolio. When, likewise, when the markets do very poorly, and you're down 20%, 30%, like we saw in the COVID crash, this sort of bleeding stop after those call options go to zero, right? After that home running money is gone, you're left with a basket of treasuries. And in every year,
Other than last year, which I'm sure we'll talk about at one point, typically, those treasuries hold their value very well. In many cases, the treasuries go up in value and can offset any losses of that call option. So really good environments, really bad environments. Swan should do very, very well. Where Swan's not going to do great is in that sort of positive five to negative five environment, where the market's up a little bit or down a little bit. Because at the end of the day, there's an opportunity cost to buy those call options. And there's something called beta decay or time value decay. And if the market doesn't move in our favor, right, then those options aren't going to pay off. So there could be, there could be an environment where
The market's flat, right? And we're still down five or 7% because that call option didn't pay off. So so kind of in that, plus a standard deviation to minus one standard deviation is not as great. Those, plus or minus two standard deviation environments tend to be very good
For the strategy. Makes a lot of sense. So if you're sitting down with an advisor, and they have, an existing model portfolio suite, how are you, where are you plugging Swan in? And what are you recommending in terms of allocation?
Yeah, so when, as far as a sort of evergreen holding, we typically see Swan in between a five to 20% allocation of a globally asset allocated model. And that's where it sort of maximizes, additional sharp ratio to a portfolio. I think it also can add rebalancing return because in bad years, you can shave off a Swan and then buy the equities and vice versa. And so as kind of an evergreen holding, that's kind of what we've seen to be a good mix. I think, I've also seen people use Swan in lieu of just owning treasuries outright. So they're saying, hey, I want risk off fixed income, but I don't like that risk return dynamic on, I'm going to get 4% or less than 4% on a 10 year treasury. I can still get most of that,
But still have a little bit of upside. So I've seen people use it just in lieu of treasuries outright. I've seen people use it in lieu of high yield bonds, because it's going to get you a similar return profile to high yield bonds with without as much sort of left tail risk or extreme downside risk when spreads blow out for fixed income. But generally speaking, for the long term investor, it's kind of between that 5% and 20% allocation. Yeah, no, that's how I would see it as well.
And there's a, I want to, we're focusing on Swan, but don't you have another product as well?
Is it QSwan? So we have, there's actually two other products that are sister strategies, Black Swan that we work with Amplify on and QSwan. So they're basically the same concept and structure. The difference is with Swan, it's S&P 500 equity exposure. With QSwan, which is QSWN, it's Nasdaq 100 equity exposure. And then there's Ice Swan, which is Europe, Asian, the Far East, IFA equity exposure. So the mechanics are identical. The only difference is sort of what flavor of equity exposure you want for that product.
So all three of those are, passive and have the June and December rebalance. So twice a year, they're rebalancing.
Yep. So all of the strategies are index based, you could call it passive. We're not kind of making ad hoc adjustments based on marketing environment. It's designed to get sort of strategic exposures.
So how are you guys thinking about kind of on a go forward basis, marketing and distribution of the strategy? what are you, what are your plans going forward? What, what's worked in the past? And, what are you looking at in the future as you, are driving AUM to the product?
Yeah. So, obviously last year wasn't a great year for Swan because treasuries, our treasury ladder lost 17%. So obviously when you kind of come off a bad year, it's challenging. we really rely on Amplify, our partners. They have a wholesaling team and a distribution to kind of push the marketing. I know I've done sort of quarterly or semi-annually kind of webinars and videos as needed. But really, a lot of it too, is just getting in front of advisors and being at conferences like inside ETFs and having those conversations because, with a strategy like this, it doesn't necessarily sell itself, right? You have to kind of have a conversation and educate people what it's about because I think people are kind of like, well, what, you know,
Is it a buffer strategy? Is it a tail risk strategy? Like, what is it? And it's not even really either of those. It's more of, in my opinion, a more optimal version of, a moderate portfolio with a little bit different dynamic.
Yeah, that's interesting. I missed, did you go down to inside ETFs? I missed it this year.
This year, yeah. We actually signed up, but then we ended up not going. We had too much going on because of this, our recent merger with Serity Partners. We're still doing a lot of onboarding. So Norm, I think that's the first time I've missed, in 10 years outside of COVID, but, we still try to get out and about.
So let's pivot to markets. I enjoy getting your take when it comes to what the market's doing, what you think it's going to do in the future. This year, honestly, so far has kind of surprised me. I didn't see the market kind of bleeding upwards as much as it has, but like to get your take on what we've seen so far, and then we'll kind of go into what maybe we'll see in the future.
Yeah, it's interesting because we've had such a narrow market, right? We've had the kind of the FANG stocks, Resurge, NVIDIA went up a lot. Tesla's gone up, I don't know, over 100%. It's kind of an echo trade from a couple of years ago, which interestingly enough, like when we know the math behind it, when interest rates go up, like those longer dated earnings for those more growth oriented companies should theoretically be beaten up more and interest rates have continued to go up and we haven't seen that. So, I'm almost equating this sort of echo trade as sort of recency bias for investors. Like the average investor won with these large growth names and it's sort of happening again.
So it's sort of reinforcing that bias. I still think a lot of those companies, and I'm not speaking on all of them, but they're very, they're priced very expensively. Like I know NVIDIA is at like 200 times earning. And even if it grows exponentially, like, what is it, a 4P, a 50, it's still pretty expensive. So, I definitely think that there's a higher probability where we see a more normalization of what we've seen year to date. I do think areas like small cap are a lot more beaten up and are probably more attractive from an intermediate time horizon standpoint. But yeah, it's, it's definitely been a weird year because the average stock hasn't done much. And we've seen that narrow, those mega caps really returned to dominance.
Yeah. I think I saw a chart. It was something like seven names are responsible for about 90% of the return this year. I saw that a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if that's still the case, but, but I'm starting to see whispers in a narrative growing that maybe the Fed can actually pull off a soft landing. Is that something you think is possible?
We're really inverted in the yield curve, which gives me pause. I know we've had a golden cross, which is 250 to the moving average, which is a little bit positive. It's still definitely a mixed bag though. Like I'm seeing a lot of yellow flags. Like I don't see a green light. I'm not necessarily seeing a red light. It's more, it's more cautious. I also think a lot of people are just loading up on one year treasury. If I've done on a one year treasury, why would you do that and wait and see? So I think that's where all the excess money's going. I do think that should interest rates go down, which is basically being priced in at the market. If the one year goes down
The four or sub four, I think the market becomes a lot more attractive because right now there is an alternative. An interesting thing we look at when we're evaluating sort of the attractiveness of stocks versus bonds is sort of what the treasury typically we go further than a year, but let's just say one year because that's the sweet spot right now versus the earnings yield of the market. So I think the Ford PE is like, 16, which is about, call it a five ish percent earnings yield versus a five ish percent treasury. So it's kind of the same as far as what's most attractive when you're comparing stocks versus bonds, which I think a lot of people are just choosing fixing. So I do think though, that if the, if the rates come down between now and the
End of the year, more money will flow into equities. So long story short, I, whenever anyone in the market assumes that one thing's going to happen. And I think earlier this year, everyone was just saying, we're going to have a recession. It's going to be ugly. Like it's a for sure thing. Like it's kind of interesting how oftentimes that doesn't happen. Right. So my thought is it's probably 50, 50, like there's a 50% chance we could actually see a soft landing. Maybe we get a five or 10% correction, but I'm not convinced that we're going to touch the lows from last October. I'm just not convinced that's going to happen.
Yes. I, I fully, um, and good thing I, I don't trade, uh, with my brain, I trade with computers, but I was fully expecting, um, to test October. And I'm now in the camp that you're in. I still think that there's trouble on the horizon. I think that there's, um, I still think there's a real possibility that we head into a recession. Um, but I don't necessarily know if we're going to touch those lows, uh, going forward. I think there's still going to be some, some bumps out there, but do you see anything out there? And I got, no pun intended of being a black swan this year that could really shake things up. is it possible that, the Fed actually
Decides to hike again, um, and, and break something at some point?
Yeah. I, I think it all depends on the CPI readings. the latest CPI came that came in at four, nine, and that's pretty healthy. I think if we drop another percent, we're sub four. I think there's no reason for them to hike. Right. Like at the end of the day, the Fed has two objectives, control inflation, which that was the problem. We were at 9% inflation and keep employment level interestingly, or keep unemployment low. Interestingly enough, unemployment has been pretty good this whole time, even through the rate hiking cycle. And theoretically they're trying to break that a little bit, but if CPI can come down without them having to break it, then I think it's a win-win situation. Of course. Um, so to me, like the black swan event is Ukraine, uh, Russia. I think the black swan event is Taiwan,
China. I think it's more macroeconomic shocks that are the risk. I do think that even if we get a recession, I think it's decently priced in at this point, uh, where we could even be in an environment like 2009, where we were in the midst of like the worst, panic we've ever seen and in a recession with the market bottom. So just because we're in a recession doesn't mean that the market is not going to go up because we all know the market tends to lead at the economy, six to 12 months. So I think it'll be an interesting, it's definitely an interesting environment because of the inversion of the yield curve. Stocks aren't super cheap, especially the MagnaCap and kind of like where you go, uh, in this type of environment. And I think black swan
Is actually a pretty good place to be for sort of a moderate type investor.
Yeah, I would agree. How much does the consumer debt and credit card debt and low savings as well as kind of the looming, commercial real estate, uh, 2025, a lot of that comes due, how much of that worries you if at all?
Yeah. I definitely wouldn't be loading up on office real estate, but I think everyone knows that narrative. I think, I know REITs last year got beat up pretty bad. They were down about 30%. So like, I think some of that starting to get priced in, like I do, I do think the proliferation of AI will be an interesting dynamic that we've never seen. And honestly, and I'm going to kind of go against my previous comments, but the one thing about large tech that you can't equate with historical data, uh, is the, uh, the scale that they provide. So if you're Microsoft and you're offering BARD, an AI system, like you can have a million users or you can have
A billion users and the cost difference isn't that much. So I think that the efficiencies of scale are interesting that tech provides. Um, and I do think that that very well is going to change the markets over the next decade.
Yeah, that's interesting. I was actually talking with a friend of mine, uh, who works for a pretty decent sized family office. And right now it's like a real estate grab for server farms for AI. they need to go out and, and buy real estate and build, uh, the infrastructure to be able to handle the scale of AI. Uh, but I agree with you. So what do you think is the best way someone should probably be positioning themselves right now as we're looking at the second half of the year?
Yeah. I think the approach right now is to be, to create a portfolio that is very well diversified, even more than the standard sense where you don't want to necessarily create a portfolio that is designed to, to do well in one environment. I think you want to create a portfolio that's very robust, that can still get a solid return in many types of environments, because we don't know if rates are going to stay higher for longer, continue to edge up, come back down. We don't know if we're going to go into a really ugly recession and it gets ugly or we get a soft landing, it goes up. Is inflation going to continue to come down or are we going to see more,
Higher than historical inflation for the long term? So in my opinion, you want to be broad, you want to be flat, you want to have a lot of options, whether that's more than just owning, the style box of the U S you want to have some international, you want to have some real assets. Um, you want to have kind of a broad diversification. And I think Swan can kind of fit, uh, solidly in, in a lot of people's portfolios, but I'm not really, to me, this is not an environment where it's very clear that there's a, there's a clear green flag opportunity. I think there's a lot of uncertainty and we're kind of in this malaise that we've been in the last couple of years.
And I think it's going to last a little while.
Yeah, I would agree with that. So Dan, I want to, I want to say, thank you for taking the time to do this. Um, where can people learn more about Serity? Where can people learn more about Swan and your NQ Swan and ISwan?
Yeah. So Serity partners, seritypartners.com, C-E-R-T-Y-P-A-R-T-E-R, you know how to spell partners.com, uh, big R-I-A, uh, we're in the, I'm in the Louisville office, uh, and then Swan, E-T-F-S-W-A-N-E-T-F.com is Amplify's website with all the information on the product.
Well, again, Dan, thank you. I always enjoy talking to you and good luck, uh, as you, uh, add a member to the team over there. I know, uh, you're going to be low on sleep, but, uh, good luck, man. Yes, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Thanks. All right.
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