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Behind the Ticker

Katie Stockton

Technical Analysis in ETFs: The TACK Strategy

·43 min

Katie Stockton doesn't just read charts , she's built her entire career around the conviction that technical analysis, done systematically, can give investors a genuine edge. As founder of Fairlead Strategies and portfolio manager of the TACK ETF, she's turned decades of Wall Street research into a rules-based sector rotation strategy that takes the emotion out of one of the market's most powerful return drivers.

The name Fairlead itself tells you something about Katie's approach. It's a nautical term , a part on a boat designed to let lines run free without tangling. "There's a nautical reference and there's the subtle hint at technical analysis giving folks an edge in investing," she explains. It's a fitting metaphor for a strategy built around letting market signals flow cleanly into investment decisions.

From Point-and-Figure Charts to Systematic Sector Rotation

Katie's path to technical analysis started with an internship at a PaineWebber office in Richmond, Virginia, where she spotted a pile of papers with X's and O's on an advisor's desk , point-and-figure charts from Dorsey Wright & Associates. That local firm hired her as an intern, and she spent two years hand-charting point-and-figure patterns. "I found that it was a really great way to be close to the market," she recalls.

Her university was one of only 12 offering coursework in technical analysis at the time. She remembers Ralph Acampora standing in front of the class, tearing the Wall Street Journal in half, declaring "you don't need this anymore." That moment crystallized her path. From there, she built a career on the sell side , Morgan Stanley's technical strategy team, E*Trade's research group under Mike Curley, and most recently BTIG , before launching Fairlead in 2018.

Along the way, she shifted from point-and-figure charts to bar charts. "As much as I appreciate them for the analysis, they were really hard to go in front of a client who was not technically inclined with, because you really had to start from square one," she explains. Bar charts proved more digestible from what she calls a "marketing perspective" , a practical insight that carried into how she designs her research products.

The TACK Strategy: Rules-Based Sector Rotation

Fairlead's research business produces a flagship weekly report covering S&P 500 sectors with apples-to-apples chart comparisons. "It's a really good way to keep yourself honest , to not let biases work their way into your views," Katie says. "You can't argue against the trend. You can't argue against the indicators."

That systematic methodology became the foundation for TACK. Katie noticed that many advisors were already attempting sector rotation using sector spider ETFs, trying to leverage trends in technology, financials, or energy. The problem was their approach wasn't systematic. "I saw opportunity there because I really believe in approaching markets systematically," she explains. "We're not trying to be ultra predictive in our work. We're rather trying to react to trends, momentum shifts, overbought/oversold indications."

The sector rotation space offered what Katie calls "the lowest hanging fruit" for finding outperformance. In any given year, the dispersion among S&P 500 sectors can be enormous , she points to energy being up 50% in a year when nothing else was in the green. "Wild dispersions. And sometimes they're hard to capture, but over the course of 20-plus years, it's been a really great way to go about markets."

Why the ETF Wrapper Works for Sector Rotation

The ETF structure was chosen deliberately for TACK. Active sector rotation generates frequent trades, and the ETF wrapper provides tax advantages compared to trading individual sector funds or using mutual funds. "The ETF wrapper gives the sort of tax advantages... and it's the most accessible," Katie notes. "You can go and buy an ETF on your platform. You don't need to fill out a bunch of paperwork."

This matters especially for TACK's strategy because the rotation signals can trigger meaningful portfolio changes , overweighting sectors in uptrends and underweighting those in downtrends. In a taxable account, doing this with individual sector ETFs would generate taxable events with each rebalance. Inside TACK's ETF structure, those rotations happen without the tax drag.

Beyond the ETF: Building a Research Business

Fairlead isn't just an ETF shop , it's a research firm with multiple products. Beyond the flagship weekly report, they publish a Substack newsletter targeting retail investors with opportunistic ideas outside the S&P 500, plus dedicated cryptocurrency research. "We're really very prolific," Katie says. The research consulting business and the ETF feed each other, with the systematic methodology underlying both.

What stands out about Katie's approach is the disciplined conservatism. She's not making bold predictions or trying to call tops and bottoms. The entire framework is designed to react to what the market is actually doing , following trends rather than forecasting them. For advisors who've been burned by emotional decision-making or narrative-driven investing, that systematic discipline is the product.

In an industry full of people claiming to have cracked the code, Katie Stockton is refreshingly transparent about what technical analysis can and can't do. It's not a crystal ball , it's a systematic framework for reading what the market is already telling you. And with TACK, she's made that framework accessible to anyone with a brokerage account.

Key Takeaways

  • As founder of Fairlead Strategies and portfolio manager of the TACK ETF, she's turned decades of Wall Street research into a rules-based sector rotation strategy that takes the emotion out of one of the market's most powerful return drivers.
  • It's a fitting metaphor for a strategy built around letting market signals flow cleanly into investment decisions.
  • Her university was one of only 12 offering coursework in technical analysis at the time.
  • From there, she built a career on the sell side , Morgan Stanley's technical strategy team, E*Trade's research group under Mike Curley, and most recently BTIG , before launching Fairlead in 2018.

Listen to the full conversation on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.

Full Transcript

6,792 words

Machine transcribed from Brad Roth's conversation with Katie Stockton, with speakers identified automatically. Timestamps link to that moment on YouTube. Lightly cleaned, otherwise unedited.

0:00
Brad Roth

Welcome to Behind the Ticker. I'm Brad Roth, Chief Investment Officer of Thor Financial Technologies and Portfolio Manager of THLV, the Thor Low Volatility ETF. Behind the Ticker uncovers the inner workings of the ETF industry. We will interview portfolio managers and ETF service providers to dive deep into their work lives and their businesses. We will learn the inner workings of their strategies and what drives them as they continue to grow their company. Many of these individuals are entrepreneurs and will have unique and compelling insights to share as much goes on behind the ticker. Please note, nothing in this show is investment advice and it is meant solely for educational and entertainment purposes only.

0:56

Welcome to Behind the Ticker. Today we have Katie Stockton. She is the founder of Fair Lead Strategies. She is also the Portfolio Manager behind TAC, T-A-C-K, the Tactical Sector Rotation ETF. I was very excited to talk to Katie. Her and I have a lot of the same beliefs and ideas around investing. She is also a veteran when it comes to technical analysis and she is also a CNBC contributor. I think you'll find the strategy behind and the rules-based strategy behind TAC quite compelling. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation with Katie Stockton.

1:33
Katie Stockton

Katie, welcome to the show.

1:35
Brad Roth

Thanks so much, Brad. Good to be with you. So before we get started, I always like to kind of hear about your background and what eventually led you to start Fair Lead.

Read the full transcript (61 more sections)
1:44
Katie Stockton

Well, it's actually Fair Lead. And, it's funny because Fair Lead, it's not a really known thing, but it's a part on a boat. And what it is, it's essentially, it looks a bit like a cleat, but it's designed to allow the lines to run free and not get tangled up. So there is a nautical reference in there, somewhat subtle. So that's how we came about Fair Lead Strategies. But obviously, the goal of, sort of hinting at technical analysis as a discipline, as giving folks an edge, in investing. And technical analysis has always been my discipline. I've used it since I was in college. And I wasn't an investor at a young age, nor was I, inspired by my parents to get

2:33

Into it. But I was always interested in math. I ended up being a finance major. And in that major, we had the opportunity to have an internship. And it was the internship that set me on the path initially to studying technical analysis as a discipline. And so I picked up an internship at an old Payne Weber office down in Richmond, Virginia. And one of the advisors had on his desk, a pile of papers with X's and O's on it. And it turns out those were point and figure charts. So I was really interested in what that was, because visually, it's nothing like I'd ever seen before. And it turned out it was from a local firm called Dorsey Wright and Associates. And Dorsey Wright, because they were local, ended up hiring me as an intern. And I worked there part time for a couple

3:24

Of years during college. And so that really sort of set me on the path that I'm still on now, with a lot of deviations, of course. And I don't know if you've met Tom Dorsey, but he's pretty inspirational as a person, and really energetic. And for me at a young age, I knew pretty much then and there that I wanted to do technical analysis and to be on that side of the business, sort of the markets, the public market side of things. And so I had this unique experience of being able to hand chart point figures for a couple of years. And I found that it was a really great way to be close to the market. And indeed, that's what I first did straight out of college as well. Believe it or not,

4:09

My university had coursework in technical analysis, too. And at the time, it was one of 12 universities that had that. So it was really very fortunate. It was a graduate level course that I audited as an undergraduate. And they brought in all the big technicians. So Ralph Acampora being one example of that. he, again, is another inspirational sort of figure in my small world here. He stood in front of our class and tore the Wall Street Journal in half and said, you don't need this anymore. So a little controversial for a finance major, right, with our, sort of 101 investments class and what have you. But I knew what I wanted to do. And, there really weren't jobs necessarily in technical

4:55

Analysis. And sometimes I would argue that there's not really that any here now either. I think it's really hard to find a job as a technical analyst, per se, doing it full time all day. But indeed, that's what we do. We focus at Fairlead Strategies on solely technical research. And we started Fairlead in 2018, early 18. And before that, I really had spent most of my career on the sell side on Wall Street, most recently at BTIG, which is an investment bank in Manhattan, and started my career in San Francisco and always had sort of a technical bent to what I was doing. I did DV8. I was a sales assistant at DLJ for a while. When I moved back east, I grew up in Connecticut. I ended up picking up a job at Morgan

5:47

Stanley on their technical strategy team, which is now no longer in existence. And that was really unique experience as well, because I got a scope of, what the listeners were sort of consuming and hungry for. So in these roles on the sell side, I was able to get a perspective, really from the clients as to what's most helpful, which to me was no longer point and figure charts. I found those, as much as I appreciate them for the analysis, they were really hard to go in front of a client who was not technically inclined with, because you really had to start from square one with your explanation. So I found that the bar charts were a little bit more digestible, almost from a

6:32

Marketing perspective. And that became my discipline over the years. I worked under some great people. One person who really shaped my methodology was Mike Hurley. I worked for him at eOffering. This was the investment bank of E-Trade at the time, back in the dot-com bubble. And we published technical analysis research on technology stocks. And that was it. That's all we did. And those were fun times until they weren't. And that's when I ended up coming back east.

7:02
Brad Roth

So a couple of things that are really interesting about that. It's funny. My first internship as well, I was actually at Morgan Stanley and was introduced to an advisor who built his whole practice off of Dorsey Wright point and figure charts. And I remember having the same thought, like, what is this? And really diving in. Because prior to that, I was a novice technical trader in college and trying to kind of figure it out. I actually know Mike Hurley pretty well, actually. I just talked to him last week. So we know. He's the best. Yes. Just a wonderful, nice guy. As far as what you like to do outside of work, I always like to ask hobbies. Have any hobbies when you're not staring at screens and selling your research in ETF?

7:49
Katie Stockton

I have, I don't know if I'd call them hobbies, but things I want to do more of. Right. We are, we are obviously really busy here just being a small business. So that doesn't leave much time for it, especially with the kids and their schedules, which are arguably more demanding than mine some days. But I really enjoy being by the water, sailing. We sometimes will race sailboats in Connecticut here. I enjoyed painting when I had more time for it and running when I had more time for it. But, we'll get back to it. I love traveling when I can. I definitely put a priority on that whenever I can get away and explore new places. That's always fun for me.

8:32

But, retirement probably will never happen, but I'll try to do more and more of that

8:38
Brad Roth

Stuff, roll it in when I get more time. Yeah. It's funny. You're actually, this is episode, I don't know, 21 or 22, and you're the second sailor we've had on the show. So I was, when you explained what fair lead meant, then I kind of had an inclination. You might've been a boater as well. So again, before we jump into it, I did see the video of you getting the opportunity to ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange. Can you walk me through that day a little bit? And what were the nerves like? I watched it and it just seemed like, five seconds after it was pure joy. It seemed like something you were really excited about doing.

9:18
Katie Stockton

It was truly sort of the pinnacle, I feel like, of my career, to be honest. I, I've been doing this, in some capacity since the mid nineties. And I don't think in the earlier stages of my career, I could have ever imagined having that opportunity. So to me, it was really just amazing. I was so grateful for it. And the coolest part was having, my, my coworkers, my friends, my family there, my kids there, and to celebrate with us and to celebrate the launch of our ETF, which again, isn't necessarily something I intended on, but that became, a by-product of what we were already doing. So it was really just exciting. And I don't know if it would be

10:05

Nerves that I'd say, but it, but certainly just that joy, like you said, just pure joy and looking around the room and seeing so many familiar faces. It was really exciting to me. And, we've had a great experience with the NYSE. I had been down there many, many times with CNBC broadcasting,

10:23
Brad Roth

But never in that capacity. Right. So, well, that's, that's fun and exciting and cool. And, I hope one day I have an opportunity to do the same, but again, very cool opportunity. So you, you mentioned the ETF maybe wasn't something that you intended to do. So can you talk about all the services you guys offered and then kind of what led you to eventually launch the product?

10:51
Katie Stockton

Right. So when, when we launched Fairlead, it was to be an independent research provider. I think that's the best description of the firm and technical analysis solely, although we believe it's really a compliment to other disciplines, not a standalone. And that's just happens to be our expertise. So it's where we focus, but we wholly believe in macro research, fundamental research, political inputs as drivers of the trends that we're trying to understand. And we, we essentially did what we always did on the sell side to publishing very good quality research. I'd only pervade to institutional clients in the past. And this gave me the opportunity, which was one of the reasons I started Fairlead to reach a broader audience. So, we, we felt that the discipline had really

11:39

An uptake on main street. And I think that came with just access to information. think about going from hand charting to then be, being able to scroll through the S&P 500 in a couple of hours. It really is remarkable to me now what, what we have capacity to do, market scanning and filtering and just the capacity for that, but also the accessibility of the discipline for young investors. I think it's really exciting because it gives them tools to manage risk and difficult market environments of which, we're, we're being dealt one now. And I'm quite sure that's not the last time. So we wanted to bring the research to the broader audience. Our client base has really grown on the advisory front. So we have a lot of investment advisors who find value in the research

12:33

And the research, what it looks like right now, we have seven different reports that we're publishing and they're primarily, I would say, focused on U S equities, but we do sort of different variations around that. We have a daily report that's somewhat short-term in its orientation. It kind of creates an episodic view of what's happening. It shows some short-term internal measures and S&P futures flow, that type of thing. And then we have three weekly reports of which one is focused on sectors. We call it S&P 500. We call it Fairly Tactics. You're probably gathering these more boating references in here.

13:22

And Fairly Tactics is our, sort of foundational report. It has our views on the S&P 500, on the sector relative strength. It has views of crude oil, gold, the dollar, treasury yields, really anything that influences equities. And that's, where we help people find opportunities, manage risk. we highlight some themes and ideas in that report as well. We recently launched something called the ETF Navigator, knowing that a lot of advisors are using ETFs as a primary investment vehicle. We cover, I think it's close to 60 ETFs in this report week over week. We'll have like apples to apples comparisons using charts that will show folks how the indicators stand. We roll in different asset classes week over week so that each gets monthly coverage in that report. So that's also very

14:18

Comprehensive and really a good way to, I'd say, keep yourself honest because to not let biases work their way into your views, I think the quickest way to do that is to create yourself a chart book, right? And you can't argue against the trend. You can't argue against the indicators for sure. And to have that apples to apples comparison is a great way to go about that. And a more conservative approach, I'd say, to technical analysis. We also have a sub-stack newsletter that we're publishing, I'd say, more opportunistic ideas outside of the S&P 500 in that it's designed for a more retail audience.

14:59

And we have cryptocurrency research that we put out as well. I'm probably forgetting something, but we're really very prolific, I think, is the idea. And all of that and our methodology became, I'd say, the basis for what we now have as an investable product. So we went from producing research and doing a lot of consulting around that to then realizing that there was demand, I would say, for a product that was in following with what we're learning from our clients, that they were doing sector rotation strategies. And we found a lot of advisors were using things like the sector SPDR ETFs to try to leverage trends in, say, technology or financials or energy.

15:46

And in doing so, they were, I'd say, trying to follow the trends, but it wasn't necessarily systematic in the way they were going about it. So I saw opportunity there because I really believe in approaching markets systematically because that's really what we're doing with the charts and with our methodology. We're trying to take out some of the gray area and let the market tell us what's happening. We're not trying to be ultra predictive in our work. We're rather trying to react to trends, trend shifts, momentum shifts, overbought, oversold indications, things of that nature. And we think that that's one of the best ways to invest long term in the equity market. And we also felt that the sector rotation work, which is something that we've always really been very close to

16:33

In our research, was sort of the lowest hanging fruit from the market in terms of finding sources of outperformance or underperformance. And, sort of an easy way to go about it from a top down perspective, because in any given year, you see major dispersion on the sector front, just looking at the S&P 500 sectors. And you'll see, what was it, energy up 50% in a year where nothing else was in the green, just wild dispersions. And sometimes they're hard to capture. But over, the course of 20 plus years, it's been a really great way to go about markets. So we believe in the sector rotation strategies, but we found that an ETF wrapper, and a systematic approach is a really good way to go

17:24

About that, because the ETF wrapper gives the, I'd say, sort of tax advantages, certainly over, trading the individual sector funds themselves, right, because you'd have to be pretty active in doing so to take advantage of trends. But then also, versus mutual funds, which have obviously sort of faded in their popularity for largely tax reasons. So we felt like the ETF wrapper was the natural sort of investable product, but also the most accessible. So to go back to our goal of reaching a broader audience, with high quality technical analysis, this is what we wanted to do with an ETF product.

18:07

Even though an ETF is pretty difficult, I would say to launch, we felt that it was the best product because it is a publicly traded instrument, right? So you can go and, buy an ETF on your platform, you don't need to fill out a bunch of paperwork. So as long as it's offered on that platform, well, then you don't have to, spend much time with your due diligence unless you're so inclined to do that. So we felt like it was an accessible product, a tax advantage product, and a strategy that we found that really held appeal for our client base. And also in our research, we felt like it was a good way to go about market. So we created this strategy. And it took a couple

18:52

Of years, we were inspired in part to do it as a rules based system by some quantitative sort of friends of ours in the business. And we worked together to isolate our, methodology into a series of rules. And therein came up with something that's, I would call it a sophisticated technical model, sophisticated without being terribly complicated, in that it's just designed to sort of trade alongside long term trends on the sector front. And following also with our, the way we think about the world in a way, and also, I'd say our more conservative approach, I don't know, if you've ever seen me deliver a presentation or anything like that. But you'll find that I'm almost, I'm sort of unemotional about the whole thing, because I don't think we can

19:44

Even get too passionate about anything that's coming from math. It's just, it's just math, right? So we feel that, our conservative approach to markets really dictates using technical analysis for risk management. And without wanting our first product to have leverage or to use derivative strategies, we found that the best way to sort of simply go about managing risk was to use alternative asset classes. When the sector ETFs that were trading, we're not doing what we expected them to do in a strong environment. So, and of course, we don't always have a strong environment. So we wanted to make sure that we had something that was adaptive. And that's what we created something that is focused primarily on sector rotation, but in markets that just aren't friendly to that necessarily. We created the

20:41

Ability to move into these alternative asset classes that tend to do better over history versus

20:47
Brad Roth

Equities in certain environments. Well, you said a lot of things that I really, really agree with there. And that I hold, near and dear to my heart, in terms of, how you're approaching markets and kind of your risk, looking at risk first, almost. Diving into tack a little bit deeper, can you talk about kind of the portfolio construction, you kind of have a bench of what you're out there looking for, and then kind of talk about what happens in different environments when the portfolio might be more risk on, or it might be a little bit more risk off in terms of its general setup?

21:26
Katie Stockton

Yeah, well, we're starting with eight buckets is the easiest way to think about it. And they are equal weighted buckets. So we want to in a strong market, so a bull market. And when we say that we mean for more than just a few weeks, we want a bull market that's established and still has long term upside momentum, we would expect to have eight sector ETFs included in that portfolio. So we would max out at eight, we do that intentionally, because we tend to see the more defensive sectors of the market of which we feel that there are three of them, real estate, utilities and consumer staples, we tend to see those underperform enough that we would expect them not to add much value to a portfolio. So we sort of took out

22:13

Three out of the 11 sectors, and created this, sort of eight bucket portfolio, of which we would expect to have all but those defensive sectors firing on all cylinders from our, our model. And so we'll run the sector SPDR ETFs, we wanted to use the spiders, because state street funds are very popular, but also very liquid and low priced. So we felt that they were something that our client base was trading anyway. So there was a comfort level there with them. And also probably the most popular sector ETFs out there. So we wanted to kind of stay aligned with what people were doing already. And we take those and we put them through our model and we evaluate them for characteristics that are measuring long term

23:01

Momentum, long term overbought oversold conditions and long term relative strength versus the broader market. So those qualifiers when they are met will fill the bucket with that sector. And when they are not met, we, we then move that bucket into different asset classes. We do also have a quantitative momentum overlay that will apply when we have more than eight sectors qualifying. And when we move the buckets into the alternative asset classes, we do it in a diversified manner, which has really helped the portfolio since we launched it, which was in March of 22. Because, there was a long term treasury bear market at the same time as an equity bear market, which it was pretty damaging for portfolios that would toggle just from, long equities to long, long term treasuries. So we have that diversified

23:55

Exposure between long term treasuries, but also one to three year treasuries, so shorter term treasuries, and gold. The gold position, hasn't helped us recently, but it does over history tend to do better than equities in bear market cycles. And that certainly was the case at times last year. So we have this sort of, it's not exactly one third, one third, one third, but it is a diversified bucket of alternative asset classes. So we can have at a given time, only three ETFs in the portfolio, being those three risk off categories, but that's only happened over the course of our model, that only happened three times. And I think you could probably guess exactly what times those were, right? They're just the major bear market cycles going back to 2000. And, we saw the portfolio get very close to that

24:53

Last year, but it didn't quite get there. It still was rewarding energy with a position. And now it's really interesting because we have what I call it sort of a market neutral strategy right now in play. And it means that half of those buckets are in sectors, and they happen to be the leading sectors for the most part from this year. And then the other half of the buckets are filled with those three alternative asset classes. And so it's positioned for, well, near-term upside, perhaps from a relief rally from the leading sector. So it does have that exposure to boost the fund, but it's still in risk management mode. And when you look at the charts, when we look at the markets from a long-term

25:39

Perspective, it's fairly obvious to us why that's happening. Because while long-term momentum has certainly improved this year, it hasn't improved to the degree with which it's saying, okay, this is a secular bull trend. We have what we would call a cyclical bull trend within probably a big wide trading range. And until we feel that the longer-term indicators shift more decisively positive, we would expect to be still more in risk-off mode. And what would it take to change that? There's a lot of different factors that get built into the model. So there's not a simple answer to that. But what we're seeing in our research, which is, means a little bit, I'd say, more intermediate term than it does long-term. What we're saying is that if the S&P 500, we do expect a

26:31

Relief rally here, if that relief rally is strong enough, meaning that the breath is good, and that it can get the S&P 500 above a resistance level, well, then we have the potential to see something that's more lasting. But the resistance is quite strong. The long-term indicators are, I'd say, lean positive, but not strongly positive. And we have the headwind of long-term overbought conditions for one. So we really want to see the market improve. And then we would expect to morph right back to that sort of full sector exposure, which is where we essentially started early 2022.

27:10
Brad Roth

So when you have, let's say you have all eight sectors on, is that all equal weight exposure? And so if that's true, do you ever have to do a regular rebalance or bring something in line if you start to see maybe, let's just use tech goes on a pretty big run and you've got it kind of out of whack a little bit? Is there a regular rebalance where you try to pull those back to equal weight?

27:40
Katie Stockton

Yeah. So what we do is essentially a monthly rebalance. And because our indicators that we're using as the basis for our model, they are long-term and for that we're using month-end closing data. And that's by design. We found that any shorter term inputs just created more noise without adding value from a risk reward perspective. So that month-end closing data was smoothing things out, but not to the degree with which we were disadvantaged by it. So every month we will evaluate the model at month-end and make the changes very close to the first trading day of the month. And if we see one of the equal weighted buckets, which are 12.5%, of course, if something's deviated quite far from that, we will rebalance it accordingly with intention. And so it's a matter of just keeping an eye on any

28:37

Kind of drift that we have there. And it's a good problem to have, of course, when something runs away from that 12.5%. And it's the rebalance that it's the dynamic nature of the model. And I think that this is where it's a real testament to technical analysis and its benefits and that it will react to a market shift that it deems important. It won't react necessarily to what it would consider to be a sort of a corrective move or something that has the potential just to be a knee-jerk based on our indicators. But when there's a major trend shift, it will react dynamically and it will do so that investors can ideally use it as an alternative to just the old-fashioned buy and hold, right? So, versus buying the SPDR ETF, as an example, you can find that the goal here is to

29:33

Build on the returns long-term versus the broader market versus our benchmark for the ETF and then do so with limited drawdowns. And it's those limited drawdowns that over history can really be incremental. Obviously, missing a 2008 would be probably the best example of that. And indeed, I think 2008 was when technical analysis really got a great reputation and got that uptake that it hadn't really had in the early part of my career, to be honest. I always felt like I was trying to defend my discipline. But now I don't have to do that anymore. And I think it's because of those types of environments that people said, well, gosh, if I even just had a very simple long-term momentum overlay, I would have been, sort of protected by that. So it's the limited drawdowns. And

30:24

In our conservative approach, also, a lower beta. And you know that well, Brad, with your fund too, something that's a bit more conservative and with a lower standard deviation.

30:37
Brad Roth

So as far as trade frequency, I know you're looking at long-term trends, but if you get a, we'll call it a signal. If you get a signal to, I don't know, rotate out of a bucket and get more of a risk-off stance, is that done in real time? Or are you kind of looking at the portfolio on, a weekly or monthly basis? we're always looking at the portfolio,

30:59
Katie Stockton

As you can imagine. It's like we eat, sleep and breathe it. And that goes for the broader market as well. Our process is looking at a lot of charts and we do that by default because we're writing about these charts every day. So that's really a big part of our process is to have that kind of visual element that is very specific to technical analysis. And so we're watching things every day, but we are only making the changes once we have that month-end closing print. So we're only adapting not intra-month or intra-week, but rather once we have that month-end closing print. And that's over history been the right way to do it because you can get moves intra-month that are just wild. And I would argue that, right now the market's very prone to that too. We have

31:49

What we've seen pretty heightened volatility. So when you can take out some of that noise, week over week, I think it's beneficial in terms of your positioning. You don't want to over trade something. It tends to just give you more transaction costs without much benefit. And you're ending up, essentially carrying more risk by doing that. So we wait for the month-end closing data. That's also, of course, like the integrity of the charts and indicators that we're using. Like we can, sort of eyeball them and say, it looks like this is probably going to happen. But until we have confirmation, we don't want to react to that. And it probably, it's something that's getting somewhat ad nauseum for our client base

32:33

Hearing us say, you need to wait for confirmation. But it is, it's that conservative approach to me that's a very wise and systematic investing. You want to make sure a breakdown is confirmed, a breakout is confirmed. You can't just spend one day there because if you think about, resistance and support and the basis for that, it's not a precise point. So you want to make sure that, if something is cleared one way or the other, that you're actually seeing that hold for, whether it's a day or two, a week or two, you just want to make sure that it's decisive. And that's indeed sort of part of our methodology and trickles down into the model.

33:14
Brad Roth

So that's actually led really well into my next question because I deal with this a lot. Having to wait, I shouldn't say having to wait a month, but waiting for a confirmation at the end of the month, do you ever look at your basket, knowing what you know about fundamentals and just go, oh, I can't wait till the end of the month. Does that ever happen?

33:32
Katie Stockton

Well, we've not had, a live portfolio for all that long at this point. But, we are always anticipating the next move. It's just the nature of what we do and being so close to the market. But we often think about it more from a top-down perspective, not for the individual positions per se, but how sort of the overall composure should be reacting in a certain environment. So, none of our analysis really tends to be ultra predictive. What we're trying to do is just stay on the right side of prevailing trends. And that's how we can help people manage risk and also discover opportunities. So we are watching it every day. The temptation might be there to make a change, but it's against our better judgment to be subjective in how we're approaching it,

34:24

Because that would be out of following with the math behind what we're trying to do.

34:30
Brad Roth

Right. So when you're sitting down with advisors and you're talking about TAC, where are you kind of generally recommending this would fit inside of a holistic model portfolio?

34:41
Katie Stockton

Yeah, for sure. And that's been something that I've learned as I've gone along. We, as technical analysts, we were not advisors. Well, we are technically investment advisors, but not the kind that you're talking about. So we ourselves don't have client accounts with model portfolios. So we've learned as we've gone along in terms of how advisors are using it. My intention truly was to create something that was holistic, right? So let's say a retail investor could just buy TAC and that could be their equity market exposure. So it really is a holistic portfolio. And over the course of the model, it becomes by the nature of that asset allocation, something close to maybe a 70, 30 or 60, 40 type of model, right? So it's somewhat in following

35:33

With what a lot of advisors are trying to do for their clients with multiple funds, right? So it creates that 60, 40 or 70, 30 type of portfolio with the unique piece in gold. So the gold would be sort of the outlier there. So it is a unique strategy in that it is holistic in that way. But we found that it's fit into some models as either liquid alternatives, because it is that, it is based on technical analysis and that differentiates it. Others have treated it as a hedged equity type of portfolio, and others are more simply approaching it as a US large cap equity sleeve. So there's different ways to approach it. I think a great way to use TAC would be as a core

36:21

Holding that is then supplemented by opportunistic positions in strong environments. So let's say, we have this relief rally underway in the equity market. And in our research, we're telling people to take advantage of it by increasing exposure to higher beta assets. And so, TAC remains a holding, but then you could supplement it perhaps with, sort of high growth, innovative technology stocks, something of that nature, that would boost performance in a strong tape and also, create opportunity to, I know a lot of people really like individual stock investing, we do too. And so a way to express those views, but to do it in a way that you still have that safer core position. And then you can essentially trade, trade around it, right, have

37:15

Positions that build on it at different times when the market's dictating it. So we like the idea of adding that technology exposure at times when the market's really very strong. the technology sector is the biggest sector in the S&P 500. So with an equal weight position, arguably, we might not be rewarding it enough in a certain environment. If it's a tech-led bull market, then we certainly want to have TAC supplemented by some technology exposure. And that's, of course, not always the case. we've had what an energy-led market before. So it's nice to be able to reward the smaller sectors when

37:56
Brad Roth

They are outperforming too. So how are you guys thinking about distribution? I know being out there and telling your story is definitely a big part of it, but is there anything else you guys are learning or implementing as far as distribution goes? you've done a great job of raising assets so far. Congratulations. Thank you. But I know as we kind of scale and you get to the point where you might want to maybe add some salespeople or certain things. So how are you guys thinking about distribution at this

38:27
Katie Stockton

Point? that is really the challenge, isn't it? And it's another one of those things that I think I've learned as we've gone along. Because I had this feeling when we were launching, I said, well, gosh, here it is. Now our work here is done. But it's not at all the case, as you know. There's much more to it than building the strategy and maintaining the strategy. It's really difficult to get a product deeper into the marketplace. And certainly, our partners have been instrumental in helping us do that. We have the NYSE, for one, is where where TAC is listed. And they've become a great resource for us. We also are the sub-advisor to TAC. The advisor to TAC is a large independent advisor down in Virginia. And they have given us

39:22

Some of the sort of, I'd say, resources in terms of trading and compliance and marketing that have been really instrumental also in growing the fund to where it is now today. And then we, we haven't really made any, I'd say, concerted marketing efforts outside of continuing with our thought leadership, I would say, in terms of the research. And we do tend to get a lot of exposure for what we're doing. I'm a CNBC contributor. And so that exposure certainly helps, I'd say, build a following. So, we're learning as we go, but so far, so good.

40:01
Brad Roth

That's great. Well, before I let you go, do you have any plans of potentially launching more product in the future? Is that something you've kicked around?

40:09
Katie Stockton

Well, we first want to see TAC, succeed and afford other products. the success is there on some levels, but we are very conservative, not only in our sort of investment approach, but also in our business. So we want to make sure that we have a good foundation and can feel confident in launching a new product. We are a small firm, but we also have really great partners. Even State Street has been a great partner to us in terms of helping educate us, right, on the industry and its challenges and, providing us access to certain events and people. So, we'll lean on people that have been great helps to us. And hopefully someday

40:56
Brad Roth

We can launch another product. Well, again, I really appreciate your time. Where can people learn more about you, the firm and the fund? Right. Well, it's pretty easy, of course, to find people

41:10
Katie Stockton

Nowadays, right? We have a website, fairleadstrategies.com. And through the website, I would encourage people to sign up for a free trial of the research. It's really the best way to not only get to know us in the methodology, but to also access us because we do provide access to the team through a free trial. And we do a lot of, webinars, teach-ins, the media exposure, and of course, all the written product there. So that's something I would encourage people to check out. We are a little less active perhaps on Twitter than some or X now, but we do have a profile there on Twitter at Stockton Katie. So people can follow us there as well. And for the ETF, there's the fund website,

41:57

Which is fairleadfunds.com. And folks can track the holdings and learn more about the strategy that way.

42:06
Brad Roth

Well, Katie, again, it was a pleasure to meet you. I'm really happy we got the opportunity to do this. And I hope to, meet you sometime in person here in the future. Same here, Brad. That'd be great. Thank you.